Live vanaf Laracon EU 2026 spreken we met Zuzana Kunckova, Laravel-ontwikkelaar en oprichter van Larabelles.
Haar verhaal gaat niet alleen over code, maar ook over ergens bij horen, moed en het bouwen van een betekenisvolle gemeenschap. Zuzana stapte later in haar leven over naar technologie, leerde veel online en merkte bij haar eerste bijeenkomsten hoe weinig vrouwen er in de zaal zaten.
Vanuit die behoefte aan herkenning groeide Larabelles uit tot een plek waar vrouwen in het Laravel-ecosysteem elkaar kunnen vinden en versterken.
Welcome to the Dutch lot of L Foundation podcast. This one is for you. Broadcasting live from 2026 letter Connie you. Now, all right. >> a lovely touch. I love it. Who sang it for you? Tell me it's one of you. Oh, that's nice. You can tell it. Is it you? It was Sora. That's Okay, never mind. Yeah. I love it. Yeah, cool, huh? It's a nice touch. Yeah. That's also a surprise for everybody. Well, okay. Set set the mood. Yeah. So, welcome to our show. Welcome to the audience as well. Nice that everybody's here again. Um, yeah, what's your name and where are you about and everything? We want to know everything. So, I was born. I'm That's why my name is Suzanne. Yeah. I am a lot of L PHP developer. I'm also the founder of Larabelles. Mhm. What I like, I mean do you want to know about like the professional part of my life or No, a little bit of personal thing. Yeah, that's That's always interest me. I have a lot of hobbies. I kind of too many in a way. But I I I have this philosophy that if you, you know, if your life is built on many pillars, if one of them falls down, your life is not going to fall down. So, if your life was all about work and something happens to work, then you are in trouble. But if you've got a lot of things that you built your life upon, then if one of them goes or even two of them goes, it's not the end of the world. So, for me let yes, I love work, Larabelles.
Uh but also I love horses, so I'm a horsey girl. Oh, okay. Horses are big passion, but I also do a lot of So, I do run I run. I'm a runner. So, that's another thing I like doing. And so, I've got like a lot of little things. I like exploring, going on trips. You like Cambridge as well. >> Cambridge. I love reading. Oh my god, one of the my best days I can do is to go to the university Cambridge Cambridge University of Cambridge library and just be there. So, weird because as a member of public, I can't actually check any books out. I can be there. I can read them there, but I can't take them out. So, what I do, I can spend the whole day there just going cuz they have thousands and thousands of books, just going through randomly picking a book and just going through. I know But for for a specific topic or just everything? Because they have I know five floors full of books and they do have sections. So, it's just I love that. The access to knowledge that are so like every when you think about it, we don't I don't think we value books enough. But everyone that the author had to spend months and years writing the book and I don't think we appreciate it enough. So, when you pick up a book, you're not just picking up topic, you're picking up parts of the person's life.
Yeah, I totally agree. So, I love Yeah. >> Yeah. So much value is in the pages of a book. It don't went so much thought in the in every page. So, I totally get what you what you're saying. >> long to write. It's not something you just make and maybe now with AI people do, but the actual old books before the internet, like all the research that had to go into it. So, I Yeah. Sometimes I just sit with old books. The other day I picked up something about traveling on horseback through Nigeria. I don't know why. It was just there. And it was amazing. Like think about the person who had to travel on a horseback through Nigeria and then write a book about it. Like Yeah, because other people would like to know something about it, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's Yeah, like I said, I've got a lot of Look at your eyes. I've got a lot of interests. I just I like so many things. In a way, I think I find something I like in everything I do. I mean, I struggle with like cleaning. I don't like anything about But like other things, I I like to find things I like. So, when I talk to people and they talk about their hobbies, I'm like, "Oh, tell me more because maybe I'll like it, too." Yeah.
You're in shock. No, I What were you going to say now? >> have any questions anymore. No, it's just so broad bright eyesight, right? Yeah. I call myself weird, but in a good way. Like Like who wants to be normal? It's just nerdy, right? It's just nerdy, I think. Yeah. It is, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think being a nerd is is not just a tech thing. It's it's being heavily invested in a in the thing you like. So, that's a nerdy nerdy Yeah, it's just a nerdy nerdy thing to do. I'm a nerd. I think, yeah. Do you also game? I identify as nerd. I don't I I like So, I tried. My family, all my my kids, everyone plays games like video games. And they tried. Believe me, they tried. I just can't. So, I don't have the connection between my the looking at the screen and the controller. Like I don't I look at my hands or look at the screen. So, I die a lot. >> But Okay, but how do you type then? I can do typing. I can't do the control thing. The Yeah. But then they said, "Let's try like not the action game." So, now I've been trying to play Life is Strange. Do you know that game? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's He's the game guy.
Life is Strange. So, that's a slow game and that's like but that's too slow. Yeah, it's really slow. It's just just a you're watching a movie and you have some decisions, yeah. >> And then it's always like you decide something and then this action will have consequences. >> Yeah. I'm like, "Okay, what did I just do?" Yeah, you never know what the other outcome was going to be. So, it's That there are games that I find tough. Yeah. Because I I also want to know, but what what is the other storyline coming up to, you know? Yeah. It's like in life, like what if I didn't do that? What would have happened? Or what if I did do that? Yeah. It's very profound. Did you play that again? >> Yeah. So, what I also think it was when Corona starts, right? Then your life with all those pillars with different You didn't have a hard time. Did you have a hard time? Not really. I mean, horses, I had to keep doing them. Like there was no other way. So, I I had to do the horses. So, being outside helped. I would still go for walks, running run as well. Like being outside like near people was difficult because there was genuinely a queue to go into the local woodland because like there was a gates to go in and you had to keep space and there was a queue to get in.
But the horses, that never stopped. Uh what else did I do? Like that, I don't remember. I also like I like I knit. I like knitting. Oh. All right. I have a very old person's hobby. Yeah. Yeah, cuz Yeah, but it's doing something. It's nice. Yeah, and I think it's very similar to coding actually because you make something out of nothing. Like stitch by stitch it will produce a garment and like symbol or letter by letter will produce code that will do something. So, I find it all very artisan. Yeah. Well, I think coding is a creative activity. I've always said that and I stand by it. That's why I like it. Exactly what you just said, making something out of nothing. That's that's the that's the part that that gets me. And that's what I think we are removing by doing AI. >> Yeah. And I know everyone's excited about it and I get it a little bit kind of. I'm worried, but I think And I know it's going to be fast and using AI, but you're losing that part that a lot of us got into coding for. When you tell Claude to do something, you're not doing it yourself anymore. I don't know. I know I'm probably the minority. A lot of people here are very excited about AI and I'm not yet. Maybe if you ask me in a year's time I will be, but right now I'm more like mhm.
I agree with you. Thank you. I I In an earlier episode, I I already meant to said something in the along those lines. So, I'm really excited for my work because my work is getting done faster and it it gives endless possibilities. But it also it it it it leaves the the the love of the of the practice of the coding. It it Yeah. It's changing, yeah. >> Yeah. So, yeah, sorry. That's a bummer. That's a bummer. Let's make it a little more positive. >> Well, I see you at a daily basis working with with AI within our agency and actually, I don't see you uh crying or something like that. And you're actually I'm hiding it very well, yeah. Yeah, you're making uh He's repressing his emotions. Oh, yeah? Yeah. But I'm your HRM guy as well. So, I should know this, man. Okay. Yeah. Let's uh do another topic here. Switch over. So, now we know you a little bit, I guess. Do Do we need to know anything anymore? Is this I think that you'll probably find out other things as we talk. I don't know. Yeah. Okay. So, let's talk about Larabelles. >> Yes. Yeah? Mhm. What's there to tell about? Larabelles is my baby. Another baby.
Larabelles. So, I always say that and it's really true. I'm not just saying it, but I founded Larabelles because I didn't have any friends. I know it sounds sad. I didn't have friends, but when I became a So, I did The other thing is I wasn't developer all my adult life. I changed I had changed careers when I was a little bit older and I had family and responsibilities. So, that was the reason why I went into tech because I needed something I can do around family. I couldn't I I didn't want to go to 9:00 to 5:00. I couldn't find jobs that would allow me to be there for the kids as well, so becoming a developer, that was one thing I thought was going to solve it, and it did. I have to say it did. Um and I At first, I learned online, and that was lovely because you just learn on YouTube and you know the courses, but then when I eventually went into meetup, that was before COVID still, and I saw all the developers were guys. And there were some women there. It was a WordPress meetup, but most of these women were designers, SEOs, marketing, that's all. Yeah? >> the only one that was like, you know, when they say introduce yourself at the beginning, and I was I'm a developer. I was like, I'm a developer, I think. It's really I don't know. Am I? Because I'm not anything like you, but I don't want to do the design. I don't want to do SEO.
Uh so that made me Google, start look for like what what's the deal, and a lot of other frameworks and communities, they do have community for women or uh so I know Django Girls and Rails Girls. That was a real big chance. Uh some of them >> WordPress also? WordPress Do they have specific for women? But with WordPress >> know it better than I do, but >> Maybe now, but the thing with WordPress is because it has it's so vast. In WordPress, you can be like a full-on developer, like just code and nothing but code, but you can also just uh deal with themes that you just click buttons. So there's such a vast uh array of things you can do, and I think because of that there uh well, they are more diverse because there's so many jobs you can do. >> Yeah. So I When I was a WordPress developer, I didn't see it much until I went to that meetup, but then when I started learning Laravel, I was like, there is no community for women in Laravel. And I was just looking for somebody I could relate to, somebody I could look at and see, okay, she did it, I can do it, too. Like it wasn't anything profound. I just wanted to see somebody else made it like from my background, you know.
Yeah. And I couldn't find anyone. Uh and when I approached some people, I was back on Twitter back then, nobody would reply to me because I was nobody, like you get all these, you know, bots and random people messaging you. So people wouldn't reply to me, which is fair enough. Uh and I ran it by a few friends. I said, what what about like creating community for women? And they said, yeah, do it, do it. But I I hardly know Laravel. Like who am I to do this? Like I don't know. And I said like you Well, if you don't do it, like who will? Yeah. And so I did, and So you found your friend over there. I made a company to make friends, and it worked. Yeah. If you are lonely, no friends, just create a company. Because once I had the name behind me, not only people approached me, but then when I approached people, it became more like they said, okay, yeah, she's a she's an actual person, so I know it's silly. Like I was just lonely. I wasn't lonely, but like it was weird to imagine myself being a developer when I didn't know any other women, I didn't know any other older, like not older, but like a lot of developers are in my eyes kids, like really young, out of college, or they started coding when they were like 10, which I didn't even touch a computer until I was like in my 20s, you know, so I'm giving away my age. But also like it was never on my mind, you know, so I just needed to see somebody like me in some way that I could look at and say, they did it, so can I.
And you become the person that somebody else could look at now and what you were searching for. I hope I hope so. That's like it's not just me, though, even showcasing all the other members. Uh so that yeah, people can see that you can be from any background. You don't have to have technical background. You don't have to have started when you were at 10, 15. You don't have to do any of that. You can start when you are 40. You can change careers just because you want to. Like everything is possible. And sometimes all it takes is that one person telling you, yeah, go for it. Because that was the one friend telling me, just go for it, do it. >> Yeah, just do it. Yeah. Yeah. And I did it, and >> So you had a friend. It was a guy. Yeah. Just do it by yourself, all right. Okay, so uh so what is Larabelles nowadays like? We are a support community, so yeah, we are there to make friends. Uh so you never feel lonely again when you come to conferences. So the general message is to show the world that there are women and like people who don't identify as men in technology and in Laravel specifically because we are about Laravel PHP.
Uh because when you look around, even at this conference, it's a massive conference. I don't know how many thousand people. Yeah. It's mainly guys. Yeah. I have to say. Yeah, yeah, you're right. >> Like you have to look a lot to find a woman in there. Which is fair enough. And the thing is, it doesn't mean that you guys are not nice. You are I mean, the Laravel community is amazing. Most I I personally not had any bad experience. Over the years, never had a bad experience. I had a few nasty comments online, but not in person. Maybe because I'm tall. Maybe because people are afraid to come and tell me something because I could, you know, No, but it's always easier to say something to someone online. It's always uh like that. Yeah. So like the people are amazing. The men are really kind here. Like they are. But sometimes you just need, like I said, somebody to to relate to, so >> Yeah, yeah, of course. So what we do, yeah, when now when you go to conferences, you will know that you won't be alone there. There will be Larabelles. And somebody, one of our members actually, she described it as an instant uh Taylor Swift friendship. That kind of feeling when you meet Larabelles, and you're like, we don't have to we can skip the small talk. Nobody cares. We just We're friends now. Now you are with us. Oh, that's cool. Also because when when you're going to uh Laracon, then you know, oh, the Larabelles are there as well.
I'm going. Yeah. I hope that's how people Yeah, yeah. I think that's a thing that that will be uh that will make some of the women think, so uh the Larabelles, oh, they're they're there. Yeah. I will also go. Yeah. Yeah. I I hope that this is going to be the case. Like yesterday we had a Larabelles happy hour after the conference, and so we invited uh so it was organized by me and Michelle from Geocodio, and it was organized so quickly. I think she mentioned it to me on Saturday or on Sunday, like few days ago. What about this? Yeah, it was at a on the on the website, I saw, yeah. I was like, what about doing this? I said, yeah, let's do this. And yesterday 20 people came. From those 20, about half of them I didn't know beforehand. So they saw they registered on the link or saw the leaflets around the venue, and they came. And they they didn't They probably saw me, but they didn't know me, and they still came. And I think we had a great time. And now I've got so many more friends. I've got so many friends. And it's amazing. >> Really cool thing, right? And I want that to be the case. Like when you come to conference, that you know you're not going to be by yourself somewhere just because you didn't come with colleagues or, you know, No, yeah. you will have other people.
So that's the It's really powerful. Yeah, I It really is. >> it is. Like it's been 5 years, and it's still every time we take the So every conference we take a photo on stage when I try to invite everyone. We always miss somebody because it's like Yeah. Yeah, people are not there. But every conference we take photos on stage just to show people and to ourselves how much we've grown. And the first photo was in Lisbon, Laracon Lisbon 2023, and there were I think eight, 10 of us on stage, and I was like, look at how many. Wow. And now it's it's just And every time I see I just feel emotional. I feel like a proud mama. Yeah, proud. Yeah, of course. And you should be. It's so nice. Right. It's just like getting because the power of community. So my background in is in psychology. That's the other thing. I've got a degree, sorry, in psychology. That's how I fit I forgot to mention that. And then like we studied a lot the belonging and how you need to be part of an in-group. Like it's a human need. You need to feel belonging. You need to feel where you belong. It's very important for our well-being.
It goes both ways. If you feel like you belong, you feel better. If you feel like you don't belong, you feel so much worse. Whether you admit it to yourself, it affects your mental health. So being part of something positive, it's it's important for us. >> Yeah, or negative. It also works. Yeah, yeah. I'm focusing on the positive. Yeah, yeah, of course. So it's Yeah. It's really interesting that your background is from psychology, and now you're doing this. Yeah. I see a lot of overlap as well. So psychology, it's all about humans and their behavior and what affects. And this is the same with code, like uh I think a lot of developers could do with a little bit more knowledge about their mental health, so they would realize, for example, that yes, community is important, belonging is important, how we write code is important, because when we write code, we write it for our future selves as well and for our colleagues. It's Yeah. Wow, it's a whole new thing. Yeah. Well, you say you're saying such a good thing, so I guess yeah. Thank you. Actually, when I was decided to go into technology, I really didn't want to waste my degree. I was like, how can I implement psychology into into technology?
And I volunteered for a charity for people with brain injury back in the UK, and what I saw in my own eyes, people post brain injury, whether it was stroke or something traumatic, and how they struggled filling out a form online. Like they couldn't handle the mouse. And yes, that was 10 years ago, but I'm not saying it's changed I don't know if it's changed much. And seeing that, like we as a part of So the people it would be like a daily uh care house. Kind of like people would come in the morning and leave in the afternoon. And part of the things we would help them with was their daily things because a lot of them were still living alone, so they would bring their bills, and we would help them to to pay the bills. So seeing them struggling to use computer, uh it It incredible. So I kind of learned about web accessibility first because I thought, well, yeah, that's that's a good segue into technology. So, I was I called myself accessibility advocate, which I still am in a way, but it's not my main focus. Uh and that's how I kind of made the way into That's how I justified using my degree in technology rather than completely changing my career and feeling like, oh, I've wasted all this.
But, I didn't because instead of I I bought built on top of what I already knew. Yeah, of course. You know, pivoted to something else rather than just starting from scratch. Yeah, it's just a pillar. You just stepped over to another pillar. Yeah. Made a little bridge. >> Yeah. Yeah. Great. >> were we talking about? Well, I I also want to know um how you can join Larabelles. What's what's it all about? What's the >> for bringing me back on track. >> What's the profit? What you got from Larabelles as well being a member as a We are uh You can join I always say there's no nice way to say it, but if you know the guy, you are a Larabelle. I know that's not politically correct thing to say, but I've not I don't know how to say it. It's for those that don't identify as men. So, if you know the man, you belong. And you don't have to There's no like a form you have to fill out. You don't have to pay a membership fee. There's none of that. Oh. Why why not? Because I don't want to make it difficult for people to join. It's It's for their benefit. Yeah. Exactly. So, for them, I want anyone to just be a Larabelle. Yeah. The money, that's an issue because we are a nonprofit. So, we don't have any product. We don't sell anything to anyone. Yet, we need money to do the things we do.
And for that, we rely on sponsorships, which I would like to ask anyone who can sponsor us, please do. >> are a sponsor. >> You are. Yes, you are. Anyone else watching or hearing this, feel good about it. We are a sponsor. We could double the price of our sponsorship, in my opinion. Yeah, we could. >> Triple even. I will talk to Roberts about that. >> Okay. But then, yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, the way we use the money other than we are a nonprofit. So, we are legally registered company in the UK. So, we have to pay taxes. So, some of the money goes to our accountant and all that. So, that's all done. But, also what we do, we send we do a giveaway for every Larabelle conference, so Laracons or Laravellives in the world. Which is right now, is it six or seven? Seven. Seven, yeah. So, at seven conferences that we give away tickets to. And tickets we usually get for free from the organizers, which is very lovely. But then, what Larabelles do we also give some money to whoever wins the ticket, then we give them money to cover at least some of their travel and accommodation expenses. So, depending who wins the ticket, whether they're local, that means they spend less.
Uh or if they travel from further afield, they will probably have to spend some of their money, but at least the majority is covered. And I want to keep doing that because a lot I think I again, I want to reduce the barrier of people to come to conferences because I don't know about what you think, but I think conferences or networking, meeting people does change people's lives. Yeah, yeah, it does. Yeah. >> That's how you find jobs and make friend friends again. But, I think it's important to be able to But, the conferences are expensive. And if your company doesn't pay for it, it can be a massive barrier. Yeah. So, this is one thing that we do and I want to keep doing as long as I can, but for that, we need the money cuz somebody has to give us the money so we can Yeah, of course. I think also we have like a small team within our agency and we have now one woman in our team. And I think it's for culture basis also really important to have like a more mixed balance about that. Yeah, it's really important. Yeah, I'm going to scan down the Larabelles website as well to send some invites. Oh, yeah, that's the that's the thing Something like that. Is that possible or is that weird? No, so we do have a directory on our website.
There's about I think over 90 people there, but I do have a few more I have to add. Uh and they uh include either their social media or website, so you can contact them through that. But, I want to say we are we have more members than that. Not everyone wants to be on the website. So, it doesn't mean that we just have 100 people. We have many more, but just not everyone wants to be there yet. But, it is a good place to if you're looking for somebody or if you have if I organize a meetup or conference and you want to have more diverse lineup, you can go and check it out. You can see who you can invite. Really cool. Yeah. Yeah, it is really cool what what you what you set up to do. It's I think it's a really great cause. Yeah. Yeah. It's It's interesting because I didn't know. I didn't plan this. No, of course. >> kind of happened. I Larabelles, I like to think it's a community-run company. Like, I respond to what the members need, what what the world needs. So, >> Yeah. same like with the sponsorship, it happened It was an idea and now it's a thing that we do all the time. And I want to say so, uh people do travel. So, last year or the 2 years ago, a lady from New Zealand won the ticket to to go to America to the US. So, she with Larabelles, she went from New Zealand to to the US. And then this last Laracon AU in Brisbane, there was a lady from New York who won the ticket. So, she traveled from New York to Australia.
So, we're not talking about local people visiting. Like, it works like globally. >> Yeah. And yeah, I think it's amazing. And if you talk to the people, they all say that it has changed their lives. So, I'm like, yay. Yeah. Good thing. Yeah. So, if I if we're sponsoring, is there also something that I For example, if I as as a company would sponsor Larabelles, is there also something that I get back from Larabelles? Not only >> you? The good feeling. Well, maybe the the logo on my website or something stupid like that. No, it's not stupid. So, you will have your logo on our website. So, we've got a support us page where all our sponsors uh The way you can sponsor is we've got Patreon, we've got GitHub sponsors and they can be PayPal or bank-to-bank transfer. So, all the different ways. Uh all the So, we're using the GitHub API to pull all the GitHub sponsors uh their avatars. So, all that shows on the website. For Patreon, I have to add it manually, but it's fine. So, there are different ways. But, also what you can get from us, we've got a little badge that would say like Larabelles companion or friend. Not many people want it, but if you want it, you can have it on your website.
Yeah. Um it's difficult. As I said, we we don't have a product. So, the benefit Again, if a company has something in mind, please tell me if Oh, okay. If you sponsor us and you would like something from us, tell me and let's talk about it because like we still it's all work in progress. Like, nothing is set in stone. Everything is in flux. So, if there is something you specifically as a company would like, let's talk about it. As the same for same goes for the members. If there is something they're looking for for from Larabelles, tell me and usually it will be possible. There was a lady that was uh preparing for an interview and she needed I think it was a Livewire course. So, we just paid for the license for a month for her to prepare. Like, anything that we can do. >> But, if if a member has a question like that, where can they where can they contact you or somebody else? >> Usually on Discord. Yeah, okay. So, Discord is probably like you can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me uh on my website. Like, you can find me all over the place, but if you ask on Discord, then it's not just me replying because by now, we've got people who uh who's either had help, so they can tell from their perspective or also mentors. Like, we have mentors who are happy to mentor our members or there are members that would like to be mentors to somebody else. So, it don't just Yeah, it's it's a community-run thing. We respond to what the community needs and we just make it happen. Really nice.
Yeah, it's it's really nice. Thank you. Is there also like a because um women Is that right? Not woman, women. We women? Sorry uh for my bad English. >> non-native speakers. Yeah. But, women had some special kind of shitty um experience sometimes with the with the employers. For example, that you you can't get hired if you're pregnant or something like that. Is there also some section in your Discord or something that you can like help other women um How do I say this? Issues that they encounter. We've not had anyone. Nobody asked. But, I want everyone to know if that is the case, get in touch because we not only like our network is yes, Laravell developers, but also now it it's reached it goes beyond that. So, we know HR people. We know So, if if I have a question, I'm pretty sure I can find somebody qualified to answer that. Yeah, that's a good thing. >> has a question, anyone has a problem, or sometimes we actually had somebody who said, oh, this is what happened to me. Is that okay? Sometimes just to run it by other people like, am I overreacting or is this not okay? Even that helps.
Yeah. That feedback from somebody else that's in the same situation is really uh And it can be a it can be personal stuff, can be uh professional stuff. It can be even technical questions because sometimes, not so much these days because you've got ChatGPT, Yeah. but before, when you used to go to Stack Overflow or like, where do you ask when you have a technical question and you don't know anyone? It's difficult because when you ask for Stack Overflow, is anyone going to reply? You don't know. Are they going to be nice? You don't know. But, now when you have access to a smaller group of people, it's easier to ask. >> Yeah, of course. So, there are lots of benefits to joining. Like I said, nobody pays anything. Just come and make friends. >> All right. Except for the companies. Companies Make friends and pay money. Yeah. Well, in the um nicest way possible. Yeah, right. Okay, that's fair enough, right? That's okay. Hey, and uh for these two days that you're here, what's what what can you tell us one highlight? Uh well, I would say meeting the people, but I think everyone says that. But, to be honest, I think meeting the people is the best because that opens so many doors.
Just knowing people and I don't that's not to mean that you use each other. Like, "Oh, what can you do for me?" You know, no, that's that's not always business. No, no. I hardly ever. I don't think I've talked business with anyone over the last two days. It's just about coming and making friends. Let's you know, let's let's have fun. Let's you know, let's have a good time. All right. You are at the conference to meet people. Uh even like to see meet the people that you look up to or those that you only see online, you know. Uh and then the other thing with Laracon cuz I know quite a few people now. So, if you want to meet somebody, come and come and I'll introduce you. That's the part of networking thing. So, I think meeting people is the best because that opens so many doors. Just knowing people and I don't that's not to mean that you use each other. Like, "Oh, what can you do for me?" You know, no, It's not always business. No, no. I hardly ever. I don't think I've talked business with anyone over the last two days. It's just about coming and making friends. Let's you know, let's let's have fun. Let's you know, let's have a good time. All right. Well, then let's wrap it up.
And thank you Thank you for having me. >> letting us know we can. Yeah. Because now the circle is round again. Thank you very much for this conversation. Yeah. It's so so cool. Sweaty hands. Yeah. All right. Let's wrap it up. Thanks again to the Dutch Laraval Foundation podcast. This one is for you. Broadcasting live from 2026 LaraconEU.